Busting Homeschool Myths, So We Can Be Confident & Happy with Alison Morrow

Former classroom educator Alison Morrow has homeschooled her own children, now 13 and 15, and helps us bust homeschool myths.

Since 2016 she has helped hundreds of families launch their own homeschool adventures or find clarity and confidence in the journeys they’ve already started through a “less is more” homeschool mindset.

Alison lives in Texas with her husband and daughters but helps families all over the world through GoodSchooling.net. 

Is what I want for them realistic? Is what I want for them in their best interest? What does this human being, sitting in front of me, need?

Alison Morrow, Creator at GoodSchooling

Alison & I discuss:

  • How her school teaching experience set her up to want to homeschool, not put her kids into school.
  • How new homeschoolers tend to trial and error new things.
  • How to build a confident homeschool approach right from the beginning.
  • The necessity to deschool your mindset.
  • Who your actual child is should be the priamry focus on your home education.
  • How our understanding of what education is and how it occurs influences our level of homeschool-related stress, overwhelm, and confusion.
  • How deschooling helps us to form a less complicated concept to education and can put us on the path to “less is more” homeschooling.
  • How “less is more” homeschooling can make more time and space for margin in one’s schedule and self-care.

Alison encourages homeschool parents:

You can find Alison at:

You can find resources & books we speak about here:

People also ask…

Call to Adventure by Kevin MacLeod
Link: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3470-call-to-adventure
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

the Transcript…

Teresa Wiedrick 0:01
Welcome to the homeschool mama self-care Podcast. I’m Teresa Wiedrick from capturing the charmed life.com If you are a homeschool mama challenged by doubt, not sure you can do this homeschool thing. If you’re a homeschool mama challenged by overwhelmed, there are just too many things to do. Or if you are a homeschool Mama, I’m sure that the way you’re showing up in your homeschool isn’t the way you want to be showing up in your homeschool, then this is the podcast for you. I’m here to encourage you in your homeschool journey to help you strategize ways to turn your homeschool challengers into your homeschool charms. So welcome homeschool mama. Today I get to introduce you to Allison Morrow. Ellison is from good schooling.com. She’s a former classroom educator who has homeschooled her own children who are now 14 and 16. She’s done that since the beginning. And since 2016, she’s helped hundreds of families launch their own homeschool adventures, or for those homeschool families that have been doing it for a while. She helps them find clarity and confidence in their journeys. Through a less is more homeschool mindset. Alison lives in Texas with her husband and daughters but helps families all over the world through good schooling.net. So welcome, Alison. It’s such a pleasure to have you back. And I’m so glad we can chat and explore some things that I think homeschool families across North America have been learning and gaining from you. So thank you for being here.

Alison Morrow 1:42
I’m glad to be back. I really enjoyed

Teresa Wiedrick 1:45
listening or looking at your website because you shared your story. The two years of miserable, expensive exhausting trial and error that ensued sounds like my experience just showed you that being a teacher and being a homeschooler are two very different things. Yep. So as an introduction to the community, the podcast community, would you share a little bit about you your homeschool story and your homeschool family?

Alison Morrow 2:13
Yeah, absolutely. So I was blessed to know a homeschooling family when I was growing up. And so by the time I got into adulthood, I’d kind of already decided that homeschooling looked like a pretty good, it was a good option. I wasn’t necessarily sure I was going to do it. But at least I was aware of it. I knew it was a thing. I went into education myself, my minor or my major was education, elementary education. And when I started doing my student teaching, when like, I vividly remember, it was the very first day of my student takeover. So like the classroom was mine for two weeks, I was you know, the buck stops with me, I can still picture standing in front of all those kids. And I realized after being in that classroom for two months already, this system is so broken, and like, I love teaching, but I am never putting my own children in these seats. So I knew before, you know, graduation from college, that whenever I had kids, we were going to be homeschooling and you know, fast forward to having kids and you know, I was in those early like the preschool years with my first and I was very you know, I’m a Research fanatic. I love to learn, I love to research and so that of course, I’m like preschool, we have to start learning how to read. So I’m like, you know, I’m looking at all the things I’m getting all the stuff and gratefully, that mom that I knew who had homeschooled back in the day, when I was a kid, she had told me Hey, just wait a little bit, just wait a little bit. And I think even for as Rocky and crazy as our start to homeschooling was without that it would have been a million times worse. So thankfully, I kind of took my foot off the gas for a couple of years. But then we got to that, like my daughter, my, my oldest was six going on seven, so kind of a first-grade year. And I was like it’s time to bring in the curriculum. So and I’m like curriculum like it’s totally no big deal. I’ve been a teacher, I know how this works. If I can teach a classroom of 30 I can certainly teach one you know. And so we launched what was really very much school at home and things got a few other things were going on in our lives that actually caused my husband to have to be the one to do the homeschooling. And of course, he was like this was your deal. I have no idea what I’m doing, you know, so I’m teaching him Oh, this is how the curriculum works. This is how you teach. And that lasted for two years and we came out the other side of it and what that was absolutely miserable. We were still married Yes 19 years this summer. Yes. But we got to the end of that and realize we had spent probably close to $1,000 on curriculum yeah over those two years. The vast majority of which was still sitting on the shelf some of it had literally opened the box and went nope and close that happen but it away. And we realize that so much of what we’ve done over those two years was based on the assumption that school at home is homeschooling, which we, after those two years realized that’s not true. And realize that so much of what homeschooling families do when they start their homeschool adventure, their homeschool journey, is that they just trial and error the whole thing. They say, well, this looks good. And this looks good. Let’s give it a go and see what happens. And after a few months of that, constantly trying new things going, Oh, this doesn’t work. Wait, this is burning me out. This is way too much. This isn’t enough, does it? My kid doesn’t learn this way. Blah, blah, blah. If you come out the other side of it going? Is this really worth all this work and stress and money and time and frustration? Like where’s the payoff? Like what? How is my kid gonna learn if we’re constantly changing curriculum, we’re constantly changing what we’re doing. And we’re, you know, and so that was what started us on this path of like, trying to figure out what would be a structured step by step approach to figuring out how you best homeschool, so that when you start, you actually know what you’re doing. You’re not trial and error and everything you’re not, you know, just going based off of, you know, what your neighbor uses, or what your pastor’s wife uses or what your cousin uses, or what that blogger on the Internet uses. But you’re figuring out who am I as a homeschooler? What’s my personality? What’s my child’s personality? How do they best learn? What methodology do we want to use? So you’re starting off with way less stress, way less craziness. So that was the launch that was kind of what started good schooling and you know, kind of our whole what we do now with Homeschool coaching, and I have two. So I have two girls, I’ve got a 16-year-old and almost 14 year old. And they’ve been homeschooled pretty much from the beginning. We know we’ve done a couple of years in a hybrid program here and there. But the vast majority of what they’ve done is just been straight at home.

Teresa Wiedrick 6:54
So tell me, then you said that you saw that the system was broken inside the school. And you also saw that the school and home approach in your home wasn’t working? Were there similarities? commonalities? What would you what was your experience with both of those?

Alison Morrow 7:11
You know, when we were doing the school at home thing, we were very focused on output, what is the stuff our children are doing that we can look at and say, look, it’s evidence that they’re learning, very focused on the worksheets, and the tests and the quizzes, and what have you memorized? What can you spew back to me, which is really I mean, that’s, that’s how the public school functions because that’s the only way you can function when you’re trying to teach that many kids all at once you can’t individualize it, you can’t meet one on one with each child and figure out how are you doing? Are you really getting this? You know, it’s all focused on that external output? And can you prove Can you show me a paper with 100% marked at the top that says yes, you know what you’re doing. And that I think, is one of it’s one of the most of what’s the word I’m looking for. It’s one of the biggest myths I think of homeschooling is that you should be able to point to a piece of paper and say, Look, this is evidence that my child is learning.

Teresa Wiedrick 8:12
So that it then is that you look for the output, or you did look for the output in a school system. And you did look for the output in your homeschool. And neither of those was the point.

Alison Morrow 8:23
Exactly. Yeah, we came to realize early on, man, our kids know a lot more than these little pieces of paper are saying, and how important really is all of the stuff on the paper? Is that really education, being able to, you know, fill in the right word, the right saying the right, is that? Is that true learning?

Teresa Wiedrick 8:40
And is it really serving them specifically? Because I’ll go back to what you said. You’re saying, instead of doing this trial and error thing, which I want to hear, like how do you buck the trial and error thing, but you’re instead of doing the whole trial and error with every single method, mythology methodology out there, or mythology. You can try them all, which I have most of them and take little bits of all of them, and then call myself eclectic with every other homeschool mom out there after years, most of them, then you can actually decide quickly how you want to engage your children. How do you do that? Where do you go when you start, you know, engaging a homeschool family with their new homeschool kids.

Alison Morrow 9:24
So the first thing I focus on is what is your philosophy of education and most fit, you ask a parent that and they have no idea and they’re like, philosophy, though? I don’t do philosophy. Like that’s really that’s way too much. You know, I don’t like it, it’s not a big fancy thing. It’s just like literally what do you think is education? What is the point? What is your goal when your child leaves the nest and goes out into the world? What do you want them to know? That is your philosophy, and you just need to like reverse engineer it back to today. How are we going to get there? Right? And for so many families? I think they just start out assuming Well, we have to get a bunch of books. And we have to sit and do those books and get through those. And if we get through this curriculum, magically that culminates in my child having an education, right? And so, when I can get parents to really think about, okay, what are your goals? What do you think is really important? And then ask okay, so how are you going to get there? Like, what do you want your days to look like? What would your child be willing and able, and what are they wired to do? That is going to get them there. I have a child who is ADHD, dyslexic, and highly kinesthetic, this child loves to move, she is boundless energy. She loves to use her hands. If I sit her down with workbooks for four hours a day, she’s going to lose her ever-loving mind. And we’ve tried that, and it’s happened.

Alison Morrow 10:52
Exactly, you know, because that’s the next thing you got to look at is what makes sense for your child. Right? This is what you want, this is what you want for them, which is great. Now you got to look at your kid, and ask yourself is what I want for them realistic? I want for them in their best interest. So I think, you know, for so many of us, we get caught so caught up in this comparison thing and this fear of being judged, and people are gonna think I’m not doing enough for my kid. And I’m not giving them the right education. We’ve got to stop looking at what everybody else is thinking and look at our child and say, What does this human being right here? Need?

Teresa Wiedrick 11:29
Okay, I gotta stop you. And I just want to say that everyone that already listens to this podcast knows, you are just saying what I always say. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It is my heart. And it took me a long time to understand that because I definitely brought home my kids to do a private school at home with Susan wise Bauer’s book, a well-trained mind. My six and an eight-year-old, do you remember me doing hours of read alouds either history or science or evening read aloud or a morning read aloud? And we would do narration and they’d have to write for two pages like, hello. My question to homeschool parents is and I wish I could have asked myself then. Is it working for you? Yeah, it wasn’t working for me, it required me to do a lot of force, which is not working for relationships. And I mean, just because you put stuff into their, you know, their hands and say you must write this, or you must sit here for this period of time. It does not mean they’re learning.

Alison Morrow 12:31
Exactly, exactly. And you’re like you said it’s wrecking your relationship. It’s destroying their natural love of learning. And I think that’s the thing that we, because of the system we have, society has been so brainwashed to believe that people aren’t going to learn unless they’re forced, children aren’t going to learn unless they’re forced. And the reason they think that is because we put them into the system so early, that we absolutely crush their natural love of learning. And then we take them out and we say, Oh, well, look, they don’t want to learn, all they want to do is play video games, all they want to do is you know, go play, you know, baseball and play with their friends, they don’t want to sit and learn. It’s like when you can’t completely crush their love of learning and then say, Oh, look, they don’t want to learn you because that yes, because of what you’ve been making them do. If we don’t put them into that system in the first place, they will learn because that’s what human beings are created to do. We’re created to learn, right? And so it’s just if you avoid that system, and you avoid putting into your child’s life, the things that are going to distract from that screen time. And I say that, well, my children both have iPads and theaters and screen time, you know, but

Teresa Wiedrick 13:46
the thing is just stuff and I have issues with always being on screens myself for like a brain-related issue, which I think is valid. This is my opinion. And at the same time, he’s learning to be a grandmaster chess person, whatever they call and I’m like, but still, it’s great. Yeah,

Alison Morrow 14:05
well, so yeah. So you know, I think that, um, parents then when they try to homeschool, they have this myth in their brain that my child isn’t going to learn unless I’m cramming this stuff into them. And so the more time they spend doing that, the more they get this feedback of Oh, my child hates to learn. No, your child hates having information crammed into one just like you would you know, oh, my child, you know, my child doesn’t like school. Well, would you like this either? I mean, you know, I and but they don’t know what else to do. And that’s the problem is that so many parents come into homeschooling having no idea what other you know, first of all, just how human development works, how the human brain is wired to learn. Yeah, without knowing that there are lots of different approaches to education into learning lots of different ways you can approach this all they know is this one system. And so they bring it home, they go oh, we’re gonna customize it by Like doing homeschool in our pajamas. And by you know, you get to do it in fancy, you know, pink gel pens instead of the pencil. And that’s not the same as customization that’s just, you know, making an unbearable thing slightly more bearable, you know,

Teresa Wiedrick 15:13
but tell me how you learn this. How did you get to this place of synthesizing this? If you started in a similar place that I did where you’re like, at home, and it wasn’t working for you? Or how did you learn?

Alison Morrow 15:26
So I actually it’s funny, Susan wise Bauer, his book on classical education was the first book I ever read that was not about just general education, like education, the way that like public school education is right. And so that was my first like, oh, there’s a thing. There’s a whole other type of learning called classical education. And so then I started learning a little bit more about that. Yeah. And along those that line, I heard about Charlotte Mason, because I’d see people who are doing a mix. They’re doing, you know, Charlotte, Mason, and classical because there’s some overlap there. Yeah. And I’m like, oh, Charlotte Mason, what on earth is that? And so then, and so I kept finding these little, you know, people had mentioned that, that oh, there’s some Charlotte Mason people who also do Waldorf what’s Yeah. So it was just this kind of like breadcrumbs that I started chasing and started realizing, my gosh, there’s all these different ways to homeschool. Who knew, like I had no idea. And I actually created at one point, a graph of all of these different homeschooling approaches that I had discovered, to try to kind of help myself see at a glance, like, if I was this type of person, which one of these systems but I want to use if I was someone who wanted to be really structured, and I wanted to use a lot of curriculum, which one of these would fit best if I was really, you know, I wanted to be a little more freeform, I wanted to follow my child’s interest. But I wanted a little bit more structure, which one of these approaches would best fit that? And that was when I started thinking about the fact that, hey, we are the boss of our own homeschool, we get to decide which method do we want to use? How do we want to use it? How do we want to, you know, combine it with other things? And so that was kind of that next shift that I had in this idea of helping families lay a solid foundation, thinking through all of this stuff from the beginning, instead of figuring it out along the way and having to constantly change things up. So that was kind of how all of that happened was just this role, you know, this research of my own, just kind of chasing it and discovering this whole new world of all of these different approaches to education that I had no idea existed,

Teresa Wiedrick 17:33
right? I found that I was just very unhappy. Because I really was like, January, February of the third or fourth year in, and my oldest is an Enneagram, type eight, and she was just so strong from the get-go. And she was like, I don’t want to do it. Like she might not have said it that way. But it was a constant resistance. And it was, you know, me yelling and me going, we have to do this. It’s so important. And, and you know, and she was one of four. Well, you know, she, she had a unique way of doing it, but I could just see this as not working. It does not make me happy. It is not making my child happy. And then I happen to come across John Holt, in a library. And that was it.

Alison Morrow 18:15
Yeah, heavens opened up in the angel.

Teresa Wiedrick 18:19
Medic. And I read his stuff, cuz he’s a school teacher. He’s like a 30-year veteran home, or a school teacher actually, that discovered that I don’t think kids are learning and, and then over the course of maybe a couple of weeks, I finally sat down my child or my oldest in a Starbucks and said, We will never homeschool again. And that lasted for six months, by the way. And then I went back to all sorts of different things. But getting from this place, like as homeschool people, or parents, we have our own experiences with education. We all have different either post-secondary, or just like our high school educations, or we have certifications, or we have all sorts of things. And that informs how we approach our child. And also our specific child is not known to us right off the top. We get to know them gradually. And a combination of like you said, exploring the methodologies and hearing people talk about different things, factoring in our own thoughts about what we think an education should be our values, who the actual child is in front of us, all of that forms a specific approach and homeschool, which makes us extremely eclectic, all of us.

Alison Morrow 19:39
Yeah, yeah. And I think that the other big key that’s really missing is the fact that once you learn about all of this stuff, so once you learn, oh, there’s this thing like Charlotte Mason or this Montessori or, you know, whatever, is the fact that just knowing that exists does not necessarily mean your brain is going to be able to grab on to it and really Follow that methodology because you still have all this other crap from public school and that whole system in your head and there needs to be a process of weeding all of that out and detoxing. And it’s that deschooling and detoxing,
yes, that so many parents miss because they just don’t know, it’s a thing I didn’t know it was a thing. Even I had done all of that work, learning all of this stuff. I even started coaching parents, before I knew what D schooling was. Then I learned what it was, I figure I made this connection finally and started thinking, Gosh, I need to D school myself, I have only I mean, I’ve been coaching for six years now, I’ve only been just going myself for like three and a half of them. And I feel like I still have such a far way to go. But it has helped so much in my coaching and with my own children. Yeah. And now it’s like the thing that I yell about to everybody the most, you’ve got to do school, you’ve got to do school, you’ve got to it is so incredibly important. Because without that, you’re not going to be able to fully unlock your true homeschool potential. And truly set yourself up for long-term success. Because you’re constantly going to be running up against these frustrations, these obstacles, these comparisons, these assumptions, these myths that you haven’t taken the time to root out, and it’s just gonna keep poisoning the well.

Teresa Wiedrick 21:20
So what’s the process? Then? How would you suggest we can understand the d school process and actually do it?

Alison Morrow 21:27
I think one of the one of the first ways I think is to start looking into other methodologies, just exposing yourself and seeing that these things exist. That’s like the first step. I think the next step after that is reading people like John Holt, like John Taylor Gatto. Yeah. Reading unschoolers. Like, oh, I can’t remember the name of the book. And it might just be called unschooling, maybe. Because unschooling is like, I don’t want to say it’s like, the purest form of education, because I do think it has some flaws, but it is definitely the furthest away on the spectrum, from conventional school. Yeah. So I’m reading about how families doing that do that, and what their children have gone on to do. And I think that’s the key seeing that these people, they really can, like, have a normal life when they go off into the world and get jobs and go to college. And you know, that they’re not just bumming around on, you know, they’re in their parent’s basement doing nothing, they actually got an education this way, seeing that it’s successful, you know, exposing yourself to that seeing how these families operate, see how children actually learn, and then learning about, particularly at the younger years, early childhood development, right, how they are wired to learn. Yeah, I’m Peter Gray. Yet another fantastic one psychologist Peter Gray. He writes that’s his thing is his education and how children learn. He’s a huge proponent of unschooling, because of what he’s, he’s researched in what he has learned about how children are, and he’s like, this is learning, this is how we really made you and if you look at, you know, education in the 1000s of years, leading up to the last couple, 100 years, you’ll see that’s how everybody learned the vast majority of people. They learn through life. That’s just what you did. You know, this, what we have now is the experiment. Homeschooling is not the experiment. Public Schools experiment, right? Yes, yeah. And so um, so I think it just exposing yourself to those things, reading those different approaches, and then really taking the time to ask yourself, what do I think education is supposed to look like? And why? Why do I think my child has to learn algebra? Why is it so important to me that they do that? What is algebra? What is it and why is it important? Is it really does my does every child needs to know algebra? Does my particular child need to know algebra? This child who, you know, I can guarantee you is never going to be a stem kid? It’s not her thing, most likely not going to college. I’m 100%. Okay with that? Why does she need to know that? What does she really need to know, she really needs to know how to balance a checkbook. She needs to know how to have a budget, she needs to know how to make a change, she needs to know, you know, accounting for business because she’s very entrepreneurial that I can see her doing.

Teresa Wiedrick 24:25
And if she needs to learn algebra, she can figure that out. Because, you know, that was me. I did, you know, typical high school program, and then didn’t finish what was expected high school, like, and university level, science or math. And so I didn’t do either of those before I went into my nursing program, but I had an interview with one of the staff there the registrar’s staff, and she said, Well listen, you can decide to take either chemistry like grade 12 chemistry, or you can take grade 12 math alongside your program, do you want to do that? I said, Okay, scared spitless. Like, this is like a number of years after I’d even taken grade 11 chemistry or a different level of math in grade 12. And I did very well in that chemistry class because I was motivated.

Alison Morrow 25:20
Exactly, you can. And the other thing I’ve realized is that in this day and age, public school, and that whole approach is very stuck in the 19th 20th century. Now, if you want to learn something, you can put in a search on YouTube and learn pretty much anything you want to learn, or just go to the library like we are. So past the days of Oh, unless you go into this specific place, you’re never going to get this information. MIT has like all their classes online. If I can get an MIT, you know, the MIT knowledge for free through a Google search, why do I have to spend nine months trying to cram this information into my child who really could care less right now? Right, when all they have to do is when they decide they want to do it? If they decide they want to do it, is it’s even relevant to what they want to do? Yeah, they can learn it in a fraction of the time, because they’re, as you said, they’re motivated, they want to it make sense, there’s a reason for it. It’s not someone coming and saying, You have to learn this. Just because, you know, treating them like we would treat ourselves, I don’t sit myself down every day and make myself do three hours of work that makes no sense to my life. Exactly. You know, like, why would I do that? So why would I force my child to do that? Like, why is that what their childhood is supposed to be?

Teresa Wiedrick 26:45
It’s interesting that you say that because I see my son, who’s my fourth. And he’s 13. He’s the kid that is now practicing or working towards this Grandmaster chess champion thing. Clearly, it’s not my thing. He often engages me when we’re playing games with him, let me explain to you the rules for the next 15 minutes so that we can play this game. And I’m like, he’s the only kid in this entire house that does not understand yet. This is not how mom works. Like this, she is not going to compete with literally anything game-oriented with you will never do math off with him. He’s very intelligent. So I’ve got lots of kids that are very math-oriented. This is not me. And so in reverse, my child is trying to teach me something that I’m like, please,

Alison Morrow 27:36
I don’t care. Because I love you. But I don’t care.

Teresa Wiedrick 27:42
Not loved chess. He’s like, Mom, there are more ways to approach chess moves, and there are stars in the galaxies. Cool. Let’s go have fun with that. Actually, so what are the most popular questions that you hear from the homeschool curious or people that are like exploring the idea of homeschooling?

Alison Morrow 28:06
Gosh, probably one of the biggest is, what if it doesn’t work, and I have to put them back in public school. And that that is such a setup for failure. It’s a setup for a self-fulfilling prophecy of your children going back to school, because the minute you take this approach of, well, I’m gonna homeschool. But I’m going to do it in line with what my kids would be learning in public school so that if I ever need to put them back, it’ll be easy, right? And I’m like if you’re going to do that, if you’re going to take this approach of, well, they might, like, there’s no real reason for that. It’s not like, well, you know, we’re gonna homeschool for you, and then we’re moving. And we know we’re gonna put them in, or you know, something like that. It’s just this, it’s this fear, it’s a fear-based thing, I might screw it up, I might have to put them back. And so they want to be prepared. And you know, it’s good to be prepared. But um, like, the best way to prepare your kids is to help them become strong learners, and forcing them to go along with this artificial system over here that you just took them out of, is not going to help them it’s going to hinder everything you do. It’s going to keep you shackled to this completely artificial system. It’s going to be miserable. And then your kids aren’t going to enjoy homeschooling, you’re going to get burned out what’s going to happen, you’re gonna say, oh, homeschooling wasn’t for us. I guess I need to put them back. So I always tell them, Look, is there a chance, you know, like, horrible things in the world might happen. And you might have to someday go do something you can’t imagine ever having to do? Do you spend your whole life in preparation for that thing? Yeah. No, like you reasonably prepare yourself? For likely things. We live in an area where we get hurricanes every year. So we have a stash of food, just in case there’s, you know, this we can’t get to the stores. The power’s out and we’re flooded or whatever. It’s reasonable to do that. There’s reasonable planning to But when it comes to this view of like, well, we don’t know, and we have to be prepared for everything. No, you really don’t. What you need to do is say, is decide, that will never be an option for us. And our family has made that decision, we have said from the beginning, we will live in a box under a bridge, before we put our children in public school, like, the lengths that we would go to are endless. It’s never going to be an option. And so because it’s not an option, we are always looking for solutions to make homeschooling work. We’re not just, you know, we’re not doing this whole like, well, I don’t maybe it’s just not for us. Let’s just put them back. Okay, so

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